Fashion Forum

The designers need the models to act as clothes hangers for their creations- they're not going to get that with a figure that distorts the lines of the garments. I reckon the super skinny look is pretty gorgeous anyway.

The 'skinny model' debate, a largely political opportunity running the risk of ensuring that nobody is happy with their own body image, has reach a new level of stupidity in Spain.

It has been announced that some stores in the country will soon start replacing their mannequins with 'upsized' versions, as not to give off the wrong impression.

This leaves us wondering - how many people, bar the late Helmut Newton, have ever looked at mannequin for anything bar the clothes? Are we really to believe that people's health is suffering as a result of the existence of waif thin models?

Source

That's just too ridiculous. The only mannequins I ever really notice are the ones at Review where they're really pear shaped... They always stand out to me as making the clothes look a lot worse than they really are.

I think the clothes drape better on a skinny frame is slightly facetious. Super slim is 'in' at the moment and has been for the past few years. Before that, the super models of the 90's, the glamazon's were the shape to be, slim but toned and athletic. Kate was accused of bringing heroin chic in. I think the tide is turning though, girls like Ana Beatiz, Selita Ebanks are the ones gaining headlines and covers. Some models are genetically slim like Lily Cole for example, some of them have to work at it and some of them do have eating disorders. Personally I think there's room for girls who have curves and girls who are straight up and down, it depends on the designer, think Roberto Cavalli/Julian McDonald/Alexander McQueen as distinct from Prada/Chanel/Oscar de la Renta

i think its an unhealthy sight seeing overly thin women on television. models are people youth look up to and if skin and bones is what they see then skin and bones is what they want. some girls will do any thing to be that tiny and its terrible, i think its sad that people arent happy with the body thy have got, some girls struggle to loose weight and others struggle to gain weight but i think if have you have a nice shaped body where u cant see you bones your doing well. Young ppl just need to learn to love their body and i think its great when you see plump models who are comfortable with their size, and i also love to see women with curves, Curves = a real women.

the whole debate on how clothing looks n a person is a bit bazaar what percentage of the population is stick thin the average size for a women these days would be a 10 - 12 (Australian) which includes an arse tits and hips. clothes that hang off ppl look trashy and untidy. if your tits and arse make your out fit look bad then your obviously going for the wrong style for your body. i dont understand why women would want to be stick thin. i weigh 49 kilos and im trying to gain weight im short but still have a good set of tits and a decent ass. i mean seriously i don't look bony skinny but and extra kilo or 2 wont hurt. and super slim isnt in its unhealthy and its also unhealthy to be fat. but i guess in todays society ppl are either 2 fat or 2 thin i think we need to share the weight around

Hi

First a paste of a piece I wrote some months ago elsewhere about the whole size zero debate.. then some thoughts on this topic to push the discussion along :)

Hope some of this is on interest..


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I should tread with trepidation here or just do as most others in the profession are doing and not say anything, for this is a complex subject all too often hijacked by people who think they have the answers or some morale high ground to speak from.

However I have never been one to shy away from complex issues.
This debate about too thin models is not new but recently has been a good one for the press to resurrect . Yes it is a worthy debate if carried out by sensible people who are not on a crusade, but are willing to see all aspects of the issue.

Firstly, Size 0 is the US size, not UK (4) . Secondly, yes several models have died; not new. Thirdly, the whole argument about the female shape through time and whether it is forced by evil men and publishers, or whether women are too weak and stupid to know what is good, or whether is just a circle fat-thin-fat that time goes through, or whether it is diet or emancipation etc etc, can be left for another day. Just remember though some of the really thin women in the twenties (no it wasn't due to starvation in the war lol) and at other times in history.

Confining this discussion to models only and in particular fashion runway models, the debate is, is there a "problem" and if so what is the solution. The perceived immediate problem is that modelling is forcing the models to be so thin that they are unhealthy and some are dying. There is, as with most issues, some element of truth in this. Pressure comes on individuals in all walks of life, from work mental stress in an office, through physical stress in dancing and many other examples. Some individuals do not cope and succumb to the pressures put upon them by their profession who in turn do not look after them.

Anorexia Nervosa in its true form is a terrible mental health issue. Yes mental health. It is pernicious and cruel and can be a killer. A friend of mine died while at school from it and I know very well the struggles of some others at this moment trying to escape its grip. I find it deeply upsetting to see people on Myspace either trapped in it and all pro-ana, or others playing around the edges wanting to go there.

I love being slim, I love being healthy, I love being physically strong. How slim any one person can sensibly be, is very largely determined by their genes. Why is it that this very obvious fact is never properly brought out? It is like the elephant in the room. Some people have the genes to make them tall and lean. Many don't. No amount of dieting will make a tall person small, nor a person who is naturally on the large side, super slim while healthy. Each body is naturally different. If someone who is predisposed to have more fat than another, tries to emulating her naturally slimmer friend, she will be constantly dragging her body away from where it really should be and it will neither be healthy nor lasting.

The BMI is one easy quick way to get some rough idea of where a person is on the to thin-ok- too fat scale, but one needs to be so cautious and use this with some knowledge before applying it rigorously to a specific person. One has to really look at the genetic make up of that person and also muscle/fat ratios. To arbitrarily put a gate at a BMI of 18 for models, is just plain stupid and typical of a knee jerk reaction. I know of tall naturally lean models who have a BMI below 18, who always have and currently look really good and have the stamina of an ox and the happy personality of a daisy. I also know of some girls with a BMI of 19 who look emaciated, have no energy and are mentally in some trouble, having forced themselves down from 24 or higher. The so called Madrid restriction is a farce and everyone knows that. It is also not enforceable. Reputable agencies will not give out a model's weight. Very good agencies will not keep checking a model's weight anyway, why should they, it is demeaning and causes unnecessary stress and worry. Very good agencies don't need to as they can see with trained eyes the body and also see and hear and almost feel the health of a model. Casting sessions with scales? I don't think so. A quick weight and height check off stage? I don't think so.
Some parts of the industry have put a media face on and talked about BMI checks, or doctor's certificates, or designer's discretion and it is all a peculiar mess on the outside. On the inside of the business, apart from some fracas in Madrid and some really healthy models being reduced to tears, life goes on much the same. At LFW this week there were no new tests or requirements and in Milan now life is much the same despite the CNMI and the government. Opening with Elena Miro was a political move. All it has done is to create worry and confusion.

At the heart of this, is how good the agency is in monitoring and looking after its models. Some I know of are exemplary and it is like family and most top agencies are good. Good agencies do actually care about their models, not just because it is money but also because they are managed by good people. It is easy to spot a model that is having trouble if one is with them for any length of time, looking too thin, gaunt, no energy etc and remember that sometimes this is not a diet issue per se, but a drugs one. Drugs is an issue.

Yes, the model's shape and size is in no way representative of the average woman (size 14plus). No one would claim that is what a model is for. . The rationale from designer's is that generally, clothes look better on taller slimmer women; debatable it may be and people can open up that debate elsewhere. The view, again can be debated elsewhere, is that mounds of excess flesh do not complement clothes of make lingerie and swimsuits look appealing. So yes there is pressure from designers- currently they tend to make to size 8 maybe 10 for shows and they are not going to do lots of sizes from 8 to 14 to fit random sized models. So designers generally are looking for model agencies to supply them with models generally 5ft 8/9 at least and under about 6ft 1 and of slim build. Don't then blame the Agency for having pools of models to fit that requirement. For some models with certain genetic make up, keeping their bodies in this state is fairly easy, for others it is a constant battle, in the same way as it is for athletes. Yes some models are too thin and just don't look good.

So what is the sensible answer to this. Stop looking for scapegoats. Stop making normal healthy good looking model's life hard. It's hard enough as it is. Stop talking rubbish about BMIs. The best way to look after models is for their agency and their friends to care for them. As a model, don't ever end up with a bad agency and no friends and far away from your family, it is a recipe for grief.

For those that think that models are generally too thin, start the debate with why designers produced their show clothes in size8/10 and want tall girls. For those that want to expand the discussion further, why do many women want to be slim and no don't just say it's because of the designers as that misses the great complexity of the shape of the female form over history. For those that want to blame the media, gosh do grow up. The media are there simply to make money for their shareholders and push whatever sells.

For those that think that models are generally exploited gaunt, sick people, you have no idea what you are talking about; observe the dance floor at 4am and the stamina and the laughter:)

For those that have anorexia or are on the fringes, you have my understanding and support.

For those that want to lose some weight, be crystal clear why, get solid advice from someone who knows what they are talking about, agree with that person a sensible goal weight, get there slowly by an approved eating plan and a proper sustained matched exercise programme and have an independent person monitor you as you progress. There is no safe quick way to lose weight and keep it off. Don't ever touch pills and don't ever do fasts, such a waste of time and so dangerous. For anyone reading this that thinks otherwise, you are just plain deluded. If you find yourself always lying and being secretive to those around you about eating, then it's too late, you have a serious problem already, seek help now. Ask me for personal advice on losing weight properly if you wish, others have.

For those that would like to be a model, read my previous blog

For those that know me, you will know that I have always given you sound honest advice. If anyone else wants my help to figure out their body or any help with modelling, just drop me an email.

At the end of the day, fashion and its modelling is as Kimmy says. "A froth on society" and is not worthy of too much angst. Poverty, cruelty and global warming rate more of people's attention.

Any comments people??

Alicia
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To be specific to this question about skinny models, maybe we need to be clear what we mean. A body can be characterised by its dimensions, the underlying skeletal frame, its fat distribution and amount and muscle tone. In terms of dimensions I know a lot about many detailed measurements of real working models and I think some of this would be a surprise to some people. Apart from absolute dimensions, body ratios are key in determining someone's look and appeal and there has been much research on this, all with the same conclusions. Also important are small things like the flow line down from the waist to the hips, square shoulders, well separated breasts, and some bone visibility. Skinny can mean to some people having a 22inch waist on a 5ft 10 frame. Skinny to others just means the degree of bone showing. Skinny to a fat person is medium to a slim person.

Everyone's taste for what they think look good will be different but people in the fashion business are not daft and they know what sells and it is not a fat bulging look, nor large great breasts and arses. That area is for more unseemly side of life. Good elegant clothes with fine lines, look best on good elegant models with fine lines.

There are top models around now that are more Heidi Klum size and the adage that the previous generation of models were more "it" than now, I dont buy. Each agency has a range of sizes within the boundaries they set which are pretty well defined, especially in France.

So what do we mean by skinny here? I would agree that seeing all of a girl's skeleton is just really bad. No top models is really like that. Certainly some of the lighting used can accentuate back ribs so be careful not just to judge on shots. For those of you that have seen top models "in the flesh", you will know that they are not skin and bones at all! They are genetically lean and slim waisted and tall. Oh and by the way a typical diet we have is burgers and crisps and ciggies and champagne- not lettuce and water lol

Alicia
xxx

When I started modeling two years ago professionally, I was a size 0,and was told I needed to fill out. I was still a kid, although a 5'9" tall kid. Now I am a size 2, and much more marketable in all venues. I don't think anyone truly thinks the stick skinny "starvation" look really sells. I do think this has gotten a lot of negative hype. Just my two cents...:-)

Hype, hype, hype.

In my experience (although I am not super skinny) it seems more acceptable for people to call me a skinny bitch to my face than for me to call someone a fat cow.

So instead of throwing light onto the controversial and harder to gather support topic of the obese we have a village of peasants racing after us with torches blazing.

I think with all the mud slinging the general public has forgotten that most women are perfectly capable of making their own decisions. While untimately we might be influenced by pictures or people we see, the choice to swing either way is our own.

I'd love to wake up to Kate Moss holding a gun to my head, but alas, this is not the reality.

Post by Danica

In my experience (although I am not super skinny) it seems more acceptable for people to call me a skinny bitch to my face than for me to call someone a fat cow.

Having been at both ends of the spectrum, I have to agree with this, when I was bigger I got euphemisms now that I'm smaller I get snide remarks about not eating blah blah.